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Grunge (the Metal years) - Page 2

80s Forum: Grunge (the Metal years)
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  1. #21
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    I agree with Pagan.
    I was a teen in the late 80's and early 90's. Metal was my life. I lived and died for bands like Slayer, Megadeth, Anthrax, Cannibal corpse, ETC. I'll never forget the first time i heard Nirvana's "Smells like teen spirit" My first thought was "What they hell is this crap!" But soon after that it was forced down my throat. It was thrown into shows like HBB. Metal radio stations were playing it. I wasn't angry or depressed back then. I liked songs about partying andi loved guitar solo's.

    After 1992 i started listening to hip-hop and dance because I couldn't stand the grunge scene.
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  2. #22
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    Originally posted by Pagan
    [B]

    Tell me that when you first heard Creed you didn't think it was new Pearl Jam? Tell me when you first heard Pearl Jam you didnt' think it was Nirvana? It's all the same. The one thing most bands of the past had was a distinct sound. When you heard Journey, you knew it was Journey. When you heard ELP or Yes, you knew it was them. All the voices sounded different. Even with hair bands, you could tell a band just from the singer. Hard to do that nowadays, innit?
    I don't mean to butt in, but.....

    Tell me that when you first heard Creed you didn't think it was new Pearl Jam? No cause Creed is a Xtian pop-rock band and they didn't sound "grunge" at all, IMO.

    Tell me when you first heard Pearl Jam you didnt' think it was Nirvana? Not at all, because Eddie Vedder's whiny teeth clenching voice was totally different than Kurt Cobain's. "Even Flow" sounds NOTHING like "Smells Like Teen Spirit".

    Maybe the reason why so many of these grunge bands sounded similar was because they are all in the same genre of music. If they didn't sound alike, they wouldn't have all been labeled, "grunge".

    Even with hair bands, you could tell a band just from the singer. Hard to do that nowadays, innit? Actually, no it's not. I can tell the difference between Tool and Linkin Park, Godsmack and Korn (very distinctive vocals), Limp Bizkit (you can't mistake that whiny voice ) and Creed...so on and so on.

    Originally posted by Pagan
    [B]They might have made music exciting to the general public who were listening, but to musicians who like to actually play their instruments they were boring as watching flies f*ck.
    I respect your opinion, but not all real musicians feel the same way as you do.

  3. #23
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    Originally posted by PoisonGirl234


    Even with hair bands, you could tell a band just from the singer. Hard to do that nowadays, innit? Actually, no it's not. I can tell the difference between Tool and Linkin Park, Godsmack and Korn (very distinctive vocals), Limp Bizkit (you can't mistake that whiny voice ) and Creed...so on and so on.
    You're comparing different genres PG. You can't possibly compare Tool with Linkin Park, or Godsmack with Limp Bizkit. Different styles of music. Then again, nothing distinctive about Sully's voice. That's just James Hetfield's old voice recycled. Tool happens to be very talented, but I place them on the fringe of progressive music. They can't be lumped with the rest.

    I was talking about grunge. All the voices were the flat, emotionless monotone.

    I respect your opinion, but not all real musicians feel the same way as you do.
    This reeks of saying that I'm not a real musician. I hope that's not the case PG, as I didn't resort to insulting you in my post.

    Ask any neo-classical, jazz, or otherwise professionally trained guitarist if they think any of today's guitarists can compare with the greats before them. No, nada, zilch. That is a fact, not an opinion.

    Somehow, I don't think Eddie Van Halen, Alan Holdsworth, Al Dimeola, Yngwie Malmsteen, Steve Vai, Joe Satriani, Michael Romeo, Neal Schon, Carlos Santana, Eric Clapton, or anyone of that ilk are losing any sleep listening to today's crop. They're not doing anything that perks the ears of their peers up.

  4. #24
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    Originally posted by Pagan


    This reeks of saying that I'm not a real musician. I hope that's not the case PG, as I didn't resort to insulting you in my post.

    No no no, that's NOT what I was saying. I wasn't trying to insult you. I got the idea that you might have been suggesting that grunge bands didn't consist of real musicians, that's all.

    Sorry about that.

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    I didn't think you were PG...just making sure.

    I never said they weren't real musicians. Anyone who plays is a musician. I was saying they weren't musicians that make people go "wow", that's all.

  6. #26
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    Originally posted by Pagan

    You misunderstood me there greeno. Cobain complained that too many people bought his album. I'm sorry, but if that's the case then you shouldn't have released the thing. If you want only a select group of people to listen to your music, then do a demo tape and hand it out. Like I said before, there are millions of musicians in the world who would trade places with him in an instant. (except for being married to Courtney)
    I've never read of such an account. When did Curt Cobain himself (not the people around him who speak for him) specifically complain about people buying Nirvana's music? There's one thing complaining about fans buying your music and another not being able to deal with the fame that comes with being a renown musician almost overnight.


    And you are entitled to your opinion greeno, without a doubt. Just as it is my opinion that he wrote utter crap. The whole "teen angst" thing was laughable at best. Look at the time frame, the early 90's....what the f*ck was the reason for teens to be so depressed? Whiny, self-centered sheep who thought they had it so bad.
    There go The Smiths, The Cure, Clan Of Xymox, Depeche Mode, et al. I am sure the same applies to those bands. Not that I think it's "utter crap," though. People - esp. musicians - have been writing about teen angst long before the 90s. By this account I could say "self-centered sheep" existed long before the Grunge movement.

    Boo f*cking hoo. Don't you think kids in the 40's (WWII) and 60's (Viet Nam) had a little more to be depressed about? Damn straight, yet they didn't form this little "poor poor me" culture whose heroes like Cobain sang depressing, whiny, angst-filled songs. They actually went and DID something about it...be it rebelling or putting on the uniform and fighting.
    And your point is? You mean there are rules and guidelines of times and places when people can write about angst and other subjects like that? This would mean that Beethoven should have been composing really depressing piano nocturnes at his lowest point in life... it was then he wrote Ode To Joy...

    Again greeno...it's not just the hairbands, and I don't mean the ones who went away and then reunited. Bands like Rush, Maiden, etc. have still been doing good business without caving to the popular trends.
    Rush is not popular When did they ever go out of style with the public?


    As big as the grunge bands were, not many of them played anything bigger than a large theater. Even today, there are very few bands outside of the old ones who are capable of selling out arenas.
    I don't get you're going with this statement. Do you mean to say that bands have to sell out big venues in order to be recognized as good...? Er.

    Unfortunately XXX, from a musical standpoint it brought nothing. I've never heard a grunge song that made me stop and say "Whoa...that dude can play!" If you want to say it brought something to the table I guess you could be correct. It brought a big mac to a filet mignon dinner.
    Fortunately, I don't follow such an elitist perspective. If I were to think that way, then Punk can be thrown into the list of musical styles that spoiled the dinner. You can also add SynthPop, Futurism/Noise, Goth, and any avant-garde music you can think of. We're only left with Classical and other complex forms of music. Complexity does not make music any better.

    All grunge managed to do was convince an entire generation that having musical talent and knowledge was a curse, and something to be laughed at. There's a guitarist named Vinnie Moore, who is one of the best you'll ever hear. He released an album last year that was reviewed by a music paper. The review was one sentence, "Didn't we run guys like this out of town in '92?" That has stuck with me since. This was the mindset of these assclowns, that having musical talent was something to be "run out of town". There isn't a guitarist in the grunge era who was fit to shine Vinnnie's shoes, yet they laughed at him. Pathetic.
    I never really cared for what the critics say of anyone's music, really. I may quote them to prove my point, but deep down I don't care. Thing is, the reviewer from his perspective did not like the music he heard. It's been known to happen. Some people cannot be made to see what others see. It's called perception. I don't necessarily have to listen to the critic, but if his perception is closer to mine (i.e. we have the same taste in music), then I may read what he has to write. I don't think that first sentence is written down right. I've not seen or read any interviews where Grunge bands have stated - gone on record - that "having musical talent is a curse." Fame and wealth might be a curse. Drugs are a curse, but talent?

    Tell me that when you first heard Creed you didn't think it was new Pearl Jam? Tell me when you first heard Pearl Jam you didnt' think it was Nirvana? It's all the same.
    It's called a "genre" and "style" of music. They're supposed to resemble each other in order to fit the category of music.
    Last edited by XXX; 11-18-03 at 02:14 PM.

  7. #27
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    Originally posted by XXX
    There go The Smiths, The Cure, Clan Of Xymox, Depeche Mode, et al. I am sure the same applies to those bands. Not that I think it's "utter crap," though. People - esp. musicians - have been writing about teen angst long before the 90s. By this account I could say "self-centered sheep" existed long before the Grunge movement.
    You missed the point....I wasn't talking about just the music. I was talking about the entire scene in general. The "slacker" and "angst" thing. It's lame. Always has been, always will be. Just my opinion, of course...but I don't recall as a child in the 60's, a teen in the 70's or a young adult in the 80's ever dealing with much "angst" among my peers.

    And your point is? You mean there are rules and guidelines of times and places when people can write about angst and other subjects like that? This would mean that Beethoven should have been composing really depressing piano nocturnes at his lowest point in life... it was then he wrote Ode To Joy...
    You missed what I was getting at XXX. I meant that as a whole, these generations chose not to wallow in it the way the grunge era did. I was stating that there have been worse times in history than the early 90's, yet the artists didn't whine about it.
    You bringing up the point about Beethoven not composing depressing music only crystalizes my point. Even though he was at his lowest, he didn't.

    Rush is not popular When did they ever go out of style with the public?
    Again, you misunderstand. Read what I say bro. I said that they and Maiden have never gone away, and are still selling out venues.

    I don't get you're going with this statement. Do you mean to say that bands have to sell out big venues in order to be recognized as good...? Er.
    No...once again you misunderstand. I was trying to point out that the fans are - even though they say how great these bands are - generally uninterested in going to see them perform live, while the "dinosaurs" not only continue to exist, but thrive. Essentially, talent overcomes most obstacles. People still go to see the bands with talent.

    Fortunately, I don't follow such an elitist perspective. If I were to think that way, then Punk can be thrown into the list of musical styles that spoiled the dinner. You can also add SynthPop, Futurism/Noise, Goth, and any avant-garde music you can think of. We're only left with Classical and other complex forms of music. Complexity does not make music any better.
    And yet again, you miss the point. I never said it has to be complex. B.B. King isn't complex at all, but his guitar playing makes me stop and listen. Eric Clapton is now called "Slowhand", and for a reason, yet his guitar playing is an extension of his soul. Stevie Ray Vaughn - in fact any and all blues players for that matter - talk through their instruments.

    I don't mean this in a bad way, but "elitist" my ass, XXX. It's all about where the music is coming from. And punk was part of that, although it probably came more from their spleens than their souls. Punk - at least punk when it first began - was real. Today's version isn't.

    I haven't heard one grunge musician whose music speaks to me. Three chord progressions don't exactly have that ability, and since they really don't play leads to express themselves, it's hard to judge.

    [I've not seen or read any interviews where Grunge bands have stated - gone on record - that "having musical talent is a curse." Fame and wealth might be a curse. Drugs are a curse, but talent?
    Then you obviously don't move in musician's circles XXX. I've heard some of the local bands in the scene in my area laugh at my guitarist when he does leads, calling him "Yngwie" and chuckling. They're all there laughing at him while they don't posess one iota of his talent or soul. Not everything that is out there is available to be read through publications, ya know.

    Please explain to me why whenever hair bands or metal in general is brought up in the media it's made fun of? Shit, one watch of any epsiode of "I love the 80's" will show you that.

    It's called a "genre" and "style" of music. They're supposed to resemble each other in order to fit the category of music.
    Silly me, 27 years as a musician and I had no idea of what a "genre" or "style" of music is! Thank you so much for explaining that to me!

    This is growing too redundant bro....you missed what I was saying again. Maiden, Savatage, Dio and Priest are the same genre, my friend....yet they sound nothing alike. Warrant, RATT, Bon Jovi and Poison are the same genre, yet they sound different also. To bring up some I mentioned before...B.B. King, Eric Clapton and Stevie Ray are the same genre, yet they've never been confused with one another. Understand now?

    I'm not trying to get into an argument with you XXX. But even the most ardent music lover will tell you that the quality of music deteriorated in the 90's. The first decade since the 40's to do so.
    Last edited by Pagan; 11-18-03 at 03:22 PM.

  8. #28
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    I never missed any of your points. I have pretty good comprehension. I just don't know where and how some of your points where formed since there is no factual data to provide a basis for them. This is where we differ.

  9. #29
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    Holy crap, we're getting it fired up now!! Let's see, where to start, where to start? First off, let's remember that's this is about opinion's ... and you know what the say about opinions, they're like eyebrows... every ones got one.

    Originally posted by Pagan

    You misunderstood me there greeno. Cobain complained that too many people bought his album. I'm sorry, but if that's the case then you shouldn't have released the thing.
    You know what Pagan, I agree with you. I think it was a mistake for them to sign with Geffen, thay may not have burnt out so fast if they had stayed indie. And I'm just guessing here, but I bet he was more freaked out about how fast the band was being absorbed into the mainstream and not so much about how many cd's they sold.

    Originally posted by Pagan
    You also seem to be under the impression that all that was around at the time were bands like Warrant. There was WAY more going on in the metal scene at the time than hair bands, ya know.
    I totally agree again. But I'm talking about the "popular" end of the spectrum, the stuff that dominated radio and MTV, and that WAS hair metal. Sure, guys like you and me were into the metal underground and knew that there was WAY more out there.... but come on, how many people do you think that post to this board have ever heard Forbidden, Exciter, Heathen and so on. Maybe 5%, 10% tops?

    Originally posted by Pagan
    The whole "teen angst" thing was laughable at best. Look at the time frame, the early 90's....what the f*ck was the reason for teens to be so depressed?
    Other than Nirvana and Pearl Jam I can't really think of another "angst riden" grunge band. Just becuase they were not singing about banging some chick on the tour bus or how much they like to party they get labeled as depressed. The underground bands tend to write about life around them, good or bad.

    Originally posted by Pagan
    Gene Simmons once said (and for once I actually agree with him) what the hell reason did Kurt have to be depressed?
    That's like saying what the hell reason does some one have for having cancer. If you're rich and famous you are automatically happy? I doubt it.

    Unfortunately XXX, from a musical standpoint it brought nothing. I've never heard a grunge song that made me stop and say "Whoa...that dude can play!"
    If you consider raw energy, passion, and an edge to be "nothing" then I guess you're right. And the first time I heard Mudhoney - Mudhoney "Whoa... that dude can play" is exactly what I thought. The guitars are so raw and out there at times that it sounds like the songs are teetering on the edge, almost ready to fall apart but they never do.

    Originally posted by Pagan
    All grunge managed to do was convince an entire generation that having musical talent and knowledge was a curse, and something to be laughed at.
    If anything it convinced me that you didn't have to go to GIT and learn how to sweep pick and play 75 diferent scales in each solo to be a musician. Heart and feel is as important as technic to me. Guys like Malmsteen, Vai, Joe Sat and all the other "guitar wankers" (as I like to call them ) bore me to tears after 5 minutes.


    Originally posted by Pagan
    Tell me that when you first heard Creed you didn't think it was new Pearl Jam? Tell me when you first heard Pearl Jam you didnt' think it was Nirvana? It's all the same.
    Creed has nothing to do with this topic.
    Pearl Jam and Nirvana sound NOTHING alike! Like the music or not Pagan, you as a musician should be able to hear that.
    BTW - I HATE PEARL JAM! just thought I'd let everyone know.

    Originally posted by surfnut
    They "Grunge" Sound Garden, Mudhoney, Pearl Jam, Alice in Chains brought an awesome new light on music AND lyrics!! Dont get me wrong, I love my 80s. But oo skinny bop..(poison) WAS getting a little tiered
    I'm with you Surf. The 80's ruled, but it was time for a little change, something a little more raw.

    Originally posted by PoisonGirl234
    For me, grunge was a nice change of pace. Everyone needs a little change once in a while and after the explosion of hair bands, MTV and radio were saturated with Bon Jovi, Poison, Warrant, etc., I know I was ready for one.
    There you go PG. Nice to know I'm not the only one who thought it was a nice change of pace.

    Originally posted by Slayergrrl
    I agree with Pagan.
    I was a teen in the late 80's and early 90's. Metal was my life. I lived and died for bands like Slayer, Megadeth, Anthrax, Cannibal corpse, ETC. I'll never forget the first time i heard Nirvana's "Smells like teen spirit" My first thought was "What they hell is this crap!" But soon after that it was forced down my throat. It was thrown into shows like HBB. Metal radio stations were playing it.

    I also totally lived for metal back then (and still do ) Slayergrrl, but I still found grunge/alt to be VERY interesting at the time. And this is what I'm talking about, when it was forced down our throats, that's when the scene started to suck. But up until about 1991 it was amazing.

    Pagan -- I think the reason you don't like grunge/alt is because you're a Proghead (MAN, I LOVE THAT LABEL! Thanks Plan13), and I don't mean that in a bad way what so ever. After hearing your band (which I like and will be in line to buy the disc) it seems to me you're heavy into the "technic" of music. If I'm off base here feel free to slap me back down. It's just that I get the feeling that you get off on mind-blowing leads and intricate changes, which I to like if it's song based and not just showing off. But man, there's something to be said for a guy rolling around on the stage in a daze of pure guitar feedback screaming his lungs out.

    This has been a great thread! It's so cool to see how people (of the same generation no less) veiw music so differently!

    Now, what should my next thread be? How I think the Beatles are overrated or the fact that I'm on the fence about the new Metallica album.... it's not good but it doesn't suck either.
    GREENO


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  10. #30
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    I agree with you, Greeno 100%. Very well said on all accounts.

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    I agree with you 100% on all accounts

  12. #32
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    Originally posted by greeno
    Pagan -- I think the reason you don't like grunge/alt is because you're a Proghead (MAN, I LOVE THAT LABEL! Thanks Plan13), and I don't mean that in a bad way what so ever. After hearing your band (which I like and will be in line to buy the disc) it seems to me you're heavy into the "technic" of music. If I'm off base here feel free to slap me back down. It's just that I get the feeling that you get off on mind-blowing leads and intricate changes, which I to like if it's song based and not just showing off. But man, there's something to be said for a guy rolling around on the stage in a daze of pure guitar feedback screaming his lungs out.
    I'll have to slap ya down greeno. We're not prog in the least. In fact, I'd say we lean more towards songwriting than riffing. (and hey, don't thank Plan13....I'm the one who said "proghead" on here first! )

    And you have to read my above post. I don't only get off on intricate stuff. Read what I said about the blues and about players like Clapton. Technical doesn't equal good. For Goddess' sake, I have Tom Jones and Elvis CDs in my collection!

    The bottom line is this. You grunge lovers...keep loving your grunge. Nothing wrong with that. In fact, there's more for you to enjoy since I don't want any of it!

    But maybe we should have a "grunge" forum instead of clogging up the "glam" forum with talk about it.
    Last edited by Pagan; 11-18-03 at 03:57 PM.

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    See, that's why message brds can be a bit deceiving, I would have taken you for a total Proghead Pagan. And I bet you would take me for a total grunger after this disaster of a thread . I'm not though. I do like that genre, but my likes include everything from Richard Hell to Frank Zappa, T-Rex to Geza X, from Slayer to SLAYER!!!! (YOU GOTTA YELL THAT LAST ONE.) Anyway, I'm done talking about grunge. Sorry I brought it up
    Last edited by greeno; 11-18-03 at 04:06 PM.
    GREENO


    "He sampled "Every Breath You Take". Which makes no sense at all, considering Biggie "wasn't breathing anymore".
    --- PoisonGirl234 ---

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    This is an awesome topic, Greeno

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    Originally posted by greeno
    See, that's why message brds can be a bit deceiving, I would have taken you for a total Proghead Pagan. And I bet you would take me for a total grunger after this disaster of a thread . I'm not though. I do like that genre, but my likes include everything from Richard Hell to Frank Zappa, T-Rex to Geza X, from Slayer to SLAYER!!!! (YOU GOTTA YELL THAT LAST ONE.) Anyway, I'm done talking about grunge. Sorry I brought it up
    Bro...you'd be shocked at what you'd find in my CD collection. Go look at the thread where I discuss bassists with Plan13.

    Originally posted by XXX
    This is an awesome topic, Greeno
    Ahhhhh....you're only sayin' that cause he agrees with you!

    *the above is a joke, in case anyone's toes get stepped on by it! *

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    Originally posted by greeno
    See, that's why message brds can be a bit deceiving, I would have taken you for a total Proghead Pagan. And I bet you would take me for a total grunger after this disaster of a thread . I'm not though. I do like that genre, but my likes include everything from Richard Hell to Frank Zappa, T-Rex to Geza X, from Slayer to SLAYER!!!! (YOU GOTTA YELL THAT LAST ONE.) Anyway, I'm done talking about grunge. Sorry I brought it up
    Don't be sorry for this thread, greeno. I think it turned out to be a great debate! Let's all do this again real soon.

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    Man,........it's been damn tough, sitting here and not chimining in, but Pagan was preachin' better than I ever could've and I didn't want to sounds "wishy washy"......

    So here's "my" take on the whole topic, (and yes, music is all about everyone's opinion)

    - I grew up listening to literally "everything", and I still do.....so why is it that when "grunge" flooded the airways,...I felt as if the music scene had been reduced to almost nothing?

    - To tell you honest truth,....I remember the first day I saw the video for "Smells Like Teen Spirit",....I thought it was a joke video/commercial just poking fun at school kids, cause' it sounded like something written in 2 min. - I thought it was funny......then group after group came out of the woodwork, and I sat in disbelief as College kids took to this music like it was the Second Coming.

    Now,...I still haven't said that your Grunge bands suck,....I'm just citing "my" point of view.

    - Wasn't Soundgarden formed in the mid 80's? - (Hmmm, could've been an aspiring Hair Band)

    - Wouldn't Cinderella blow Pearl Jam off any stage/any venue, even as we speak?

    - I think Grunge was so short lived for the simple reason that even the Grunge Bands got sick of feeling/looking miserable the whole time.

    - No, I don't think Nirvana could've pulled off wearing those white-leather pants.

    In short, every type of music has it's place in time, and you take from it what you will..
    When grunge came out, I really did long for the days when the band on stage looked like they were "enjoying" themselves, and having a great time, cause that's what "I" thought music should be about. If you look like you're going to kill yourself (and you did) then why are you doing it?

    Hell, what do "I" know, I play guitar, am going to see Stryper tomorrow night in Boston, and think they are a "really" good band....."really"

    I may need help........
    Please Visit My Homepage Below - It's dedicated to individuals like yourself......
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    Originally posted by HairMetalFantasy


    Hell, what do "I" know, I play guitar, am going to see Stryper tomorrow night in Boston, and think they are a "really" good band....."really"

    I may need help........
    Correct you are sir... Stryper is a "helluva" band... pun intended.
    http://nasapunk.tripod.com/chris/index.html

    Punks Not Dead!!! .... it's just hiding in the suburbs with gray hair.....

    and listening to Progressive Metal and Jazz

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    Originally posted by plan13


    Correct you are sir... Stryper is a "helluva" band... pun intended.
    Bwahahahaha! Good god, that was funny!


  20. #40
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    La Jolla, CA
    Age
    39
    Posts
    1,979
    Like Lazarus risen from the dead, god's bumblebee band is pollinating the gospel to the masses of Boston


    Last edited by XXX; 11-19-03 at 01:52 AM.

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