The Holocaust Chronicle (VERY important read)

[BrandyBlue]

I don't think it should be a crime to deny it. Stupidity is not a crime.

[Not a PC thug]

I'm not defending the Soviets but you should read a bit about the war in the east to understand that it was not like the Western Front. The russians were fighting to avoid extermination. Soviet Soldiers who surrendered to the germans were starved or worked to death. 3 Million surrendered and 2 million of those died from starvation and death in the Nazi's factories. The Soviets were an appalling regime but they should also be acknowledged as the armies that bled the Wehrmacht white on the Eastern Front.

I am well versed in the fighting on the eastern front. Approximately 4 of 5 German soldiers killed in WWII were killed on the eastern front.

That has NOTHING to do with the MILLIONS of people that Stalin had murdered before the Germans invaded. Read up on the Soviet control of Ukraine, Belorussia, Lituania, Latvia, and Estonia. Research the 25,000 Polish officers that were executed after the Soviet invasion of Poland.

What about the rape and pillaging of German cities late in the war. Elderly women and children were not spared the wrath of the Soviets.

Are you justifying the Soviets sending their own troops to the Gulag because they surrendered to the Germans.

There is no defense for what Nazis did from 1933-1945, but that is a blip in time compared to the number of people killed by socialist/communist regimes in the USSR, China, and Southeast Asia, many of which still exist to this day.

[nolanbuc]

I am well versed in the fighting on the eastern front. Approximately 4 of 5 German soldiers killed in WWII were killed on the eastern front.
That has NOTHING to do with the MILLIONS of people that Stalin had murdered before the Germans invaded. Read up on the Soviet control of Ukraine, Belorussia, Lituania, Latvia, and Estonia. Research the 25,000 Polish officers that were executed after the Soviet invasion of Poland.
What about the rape and pillaging of German cities late in the war. Elderly women and children were not spared the wrath of the Soviets.
Are you justifying the Soviets sending their own troops to the Gulag because they surrendered to the Germans.
There is no defense for what Nazis did from 1933-1945, but that is a blip in time compared to the number of people killed by socialist/communist regimes in the USSR, China, and Southeast Asia, many of which still exist to this day.

You are right that despotic communist regimes have killed their millions, but (with all due respect to your opinions) I'd hardly call the toll of the Axis's aggression a blip. The 6 million number was just Jews. Of the 5.6 million Soviet soldiers captured during WWII, 3.6 million died in captivity. That is attrocious, especially since Germany (unlike the USSR and Japan) had signed the 3rd Geneva Convention back in 1929, well before hostilities commenced. Also, consider the Einsatzgruppen, who followed the armies of the Wehrmacht to "cleanse" occupied areas of "unwanted groups". This was not mere pillage, but a systematic program of genocide.

The butcher's bill continues, including 5 million more Gypsies, Roma, homosexuals, Communists, etc. Not to mention the millions of civilians who died in the fighting of who were used by German troops as human shields. Yes, the Red Army and the Soviet regime had it's share of sins, but WWII was war to the knife on a global scale, with suffering the likes of which we had never seen...all because of the ambitions and hatred of a very small group of men.

[Not a PC thug]

You are right that despotic communist regimes have killed their millions, but (with all due respect to your opinions) I'd hardly call the toll of the Axis's aggression a blip. The 6 million number was just Jews. Of the 5.6 million Soviet soldiers captured during WWII, 3.6 million died in captivity. That is attrocious, especially since Germany (unlike the USSR and Japan) had signed the 3rd Geneva Convention back in 1929, well before hostilities commenced. Also, consider the Einsatzgruppen, who followed the armies of the Wehrmacht to "cleanse" occupied areas of "unwanted groups". This was not mere pillage, but a systematic program of genocide.
The butcher's bill continues, including 5 million more Gypsies, Roma, homosexuals, Communists, etc. Not to mention the millions of civilians who died in the fighting of who were used by German troops as human shields. Yes, the Red Army and the Soviet regime had it's share of sins, but WWII was war to the knife on a global scale, with suffering the likes of which we had never seen...all because of the ambitions and hatred of a very small group of men.

Nazism/Fascism was essentially squashed as a political movement at the end of WWII. Marxism/Communism is still alive today and shows no signs of going away despite improvements made in China.

Nazis were held accountable at the end of WWII. Communists have rarely been held accountable for their butchery. Not only that, but Communism is embraced by many of our "intellectuals". I am all for teaching about the holocaust, but it should be covered as one part of the evils of totaliatarianism and not as the "spotlight" one.

[Prefab Sprouter]

First of all I would take issue with you over the fact that this thread has gone from a thread about the holocaust to you telling us how evil Communism is.

Im not taking issue with you over Stalin being an inherently evil man nor do I condone the actions taken by the Stalinist regime toward the peoples that made up the Soviet Union. I am very aware of Katyn Wood and the crimes committed against the Poles by the Soviet Union. There's one fundamental difference between Communism and Nazism. Show me the proof that the Soviets wanted to wipe out a particular race of people. And show me why they wanted to do it based on their superiority as a race. You cant because they didnt. The Soviets had war declared on them and unlike the Western Front they knew that if they lost the slavic races would be at the least, enslaved and at worst fed to the Ovens. you talk about Communist atrocities in Poland? Read up on some of the Nazis excesses in the Ukraine, a region which wasnt even loyal to Stalin!!!! For every Katyn Wood, think about Babi Yar. The Soviet Regime under Stalin was an awful regime but and yes Stalin would be a war criminal only it suited the West to have the Soviets on their side but unlike Hitler, Stalin was not a lunatic obsessed with racial hatred.

You asked me about the Soviet Soldiers who surrendered to the Nazis in 1941 and, upon return, were sent to the gulag- yep no contest there. what happened there was truly awful. Inexcusable and they were let down by a regime that didnt care about its forward troops at the border in 1941.

And as for your point about the Germans in 1945, well just what did they expect?? They were part of a regime that tried to wipe out a race from the face of the earth. This part of the war, the fall of the Reich is my specialist area of interest in the war. And the Soviet onslaught wreaked terrible havoc on the German peoples in 1945. But you know what? These were the very same people who joyously saluted their Fuhrer at the sportpalast parades, they were the ones throwing flowers as the troops came back from the victoriouse campaigns in Poland whilst the einsatzgruppen systematically wiped out the Polish Intelligentsia. i have spoken with Germans who survived those awful months and their stories are awful and on an individual level I can and do geniunely feel remorseful but what the Soviets inflicted upon the Germans was NOTHING compared to what the likes of Gauleiter Koch and Forster inflicted upon the vanquished Eastern Provinces of the Reich.

Communsim/Marxism takes many different forms. Mao and Stalin were completely different types, different as chalk and cheese. But you are right about the evilness of both regimes.

[Not a PC thug]

First of all I would take issue with you over the fact that this thread has gone from a thread about the holocaust to you telling us how evil Communism is.

There's one fundamental difference between Communism and Nazism. Show me the proof that the Soviets wanted to wipe out a particular race of people. And show me why they wanted to do it based on their superiority as a race. You cant because they didnt.

Stalin was an awful regime but and yes Stalin would be a war criminal only it suited the West to have the Soviets on their side but unlike Hitler, Stalin was not a lunatic obsessed with racial hatred.


And as for your point about the Germans in 1945, well just what did they expect?? They were part of a regime that tried to wipe out a race from the face of the earth.

I am totally amazed at your post. I kept the relevant points that I want to respond to.

I am not trying to tell you the evils of Communism. I'm trying to make the point that the Holocaust should be one part of the evils of Totalitarianism.

No, the Soviets and other Marxist, etc. regimes wanted to wipe out an entire class of people based on things like education and occupation. Somehow, I don't see one reason being any worse than the other.

The west buddied up with Stalin thinking of him as the lesser of two evils. That was no excuse for Roosevelt to refer to him as "Uncle Joe". Stalin was a lunatic obsessed with absolute power.

I would expect the Soviet soldiers to be held to the same standard as the western soldiers and not rape women & children. I know the US soldiers were not perfect, but several were executed for committing rape while the Soviets were encouraged to do so. I will acknowledge that both western & Soviets summarily executed SS soldiers and under the circumstances that behavior was not surprising.

I also contend that WWII didn't really end until the collapse of Communism in the late 80s, but that is a topic for another day.

[Prefab Sprouter]

PC, Right well we're actually not that far apart in our thinking. I would contend that the war in the West and the east were fought completely differently. for a start, the Germans never issued a "Commissar" style order that they did in the East in the West. Because Russia never signed the Geneva Convention the Germans were of the opinion that they could do what they liked. Because of this, The "gloves came off". No mercy was shown by either side. The lack of a geneva convention ensured that the Soviets could not be held to the same standard as the Western Allies. if a westerner surrendered to the Germans, more often than not they survived. Soviets as you well know didnt. I find it easier to look at WW2 as two or three different unrelated conflicts with some crossovers. Whilst Russian poets and writers did indeed encourage revenge such as the writings of Ilya Ehrenburg up to 1944, after this they were told to tone it down (there's evidence that Stalin himself ordered this) as they didnt want to give the German's reason to resist. In general the frontline units were well behaved, it was the rear units who committted a lot fo the atrocities. This is not a justification of those activities merely an attempt at an explanation.

i take your point about totalitarianism but I still think this might be better moving to a different thread, maybe in the "controversial discussions" area!!

[BrandyBlue]

I want you to all be able to debate this, but I want this to remain open to EVERYONE. If you want to debate, that's cool, but please take that part of this discussion to Controversial Topics, because I want the information about this book out there for everyone at the board to see. It's a very important read for everyone and that is why I started this thread.

This book is an opportunity to learn, to open your mind, to open your heart and to teach. Please, guys, I don't want this to turn to something ugly, I want this to promote this powerful book.

[Prefab Sprouter]

Brandy, you'll get no argument from me. i think it is a very important book and is well worth the purchase for anyone who is interested in the Holocaust.

[Not a PC thug]

This book is an opportunity to learn, to open your mind, to open your heart and to teach. Please, guys, I don't want this to turn to something ugly, I want this to promote this powerful book.

There is no reason for rational people to turn a legitimate discussion into an ugly scene. I've made my point, so I'll leave it at that.